PSU Advice

Bubba wrote:
 > Cerridwen's log on stardate 13 ožu 2004
 >
  >> I'm calculating for a new CPU/RAM/board combo, and I need to know
  >> whether a 340W Chieftec supply will be sufficient to run the
  >> following: -
 >
  >> 1GB OCZ 3500
 >
 > Try to get two moduls, to activate DC.

OK good point

 >
  >> P4C 3.2 (I can't see that a 3.4 justifies an extra £100). I've been
  >> looking for a 3.2GHz Prescott, but I can't find them anywhere online
  >> in the UK.
 >
 > I don't whant to be rude, but this is just about bragging. C'mon, you
 > can do apsolutly everithing as good as this one with ~100£ cheaper
 > 2.4C.

Erm, I'm running a 3.06 now, ta very much. I'm not going slower.


  >> 2xWDC IDE (160 and 200)
 >
 > Must say that i don't get this one? Why two drives with _different_
 > sizes? Have you considerd any mirroring RAID, since you are graphic
 > artist?


Erm, because it's what I already have.

  >> 9800 Pro (can't see any reason to upgrade as I'm not a serious
  >> /serious/ gamer - I'm a graphics artist)
 >
 > You plan to buy this one, or you have it already? What kinde of
 > graphic artist?

I already have the card.


  >> Audigy 2 Platinum
 >
 > IIRC, you are a _graphic_ artist, not a sound artist. OB soundcard for
 > MP3 and games will do.


I already have the graphics and sound cards.

  >> If not, what should I be budgeting for?
 >
 > Well, from difference you will get from buying cheaper and
 > proportionaly efficient hardware, you should consider taking stronger
 > PSU (personaly, i'd take Enlight if available) or
 > bigger/better/second monitor.


Why would I want a better/second monitor? I have a 17" flat panel.

 > BTW, you haven't given your budget, nor your primary use of computer,
 > so it is probably stupid to give any comments, since we don't know
 > anything relevant.
 >> Stay informed about: PSU Advice 

On 13 Mar 2004 19:35:00 GMT, Bubba wrote:

<snip>

 >Well, from difference you will get from buying cheaper and proportionaly
 >efficient hardware, you should consider taking stronger PSU (personaly,
 >i'd take Enlight if available) or bigger/better/second monitor.

Enlight and Chieftec are same power supply, as is Thermaltake. All are
Sirtec relabels. They change the case color, fan brand or add/remove
chrome grill and a second fan, cable sleeving, but for the most part only
cosmetic differences.

The 340W would probably work for the described parts but it's somewhat
marginal, a 400W+ would be better. Ignoring the problems I mention in the
next paragraph it's not a cheap/junk unit but it's actual capacity is a
bit lower than optimal for the described system.

I had an Enlight 340W that failed, vented the cap next to a load resistor
because the two parts were too close on the PCB, touching, actually
cemented together. I replaced the failed cap and it worked fine again for
2/3 of a year then another cap failed... replaced that 2nd failed cap and
it's running fine again for several months AFAIK. If it hadn't been for
the caps it would've been a great value (came free-with-case in an Enlight
case) for the total cost but I'd rather have paid a few $ more and never
had to repair it.

Point being, the PSU is by the standards of any other type of consumer
equipment, junk, but by power supplies standards there are so many power
supplies so much worse that it seems like a median unit, that works fine
but potentially has a defect or two in parts and PCB layout. The OP's
power supply might be near failure already, might be good to open it up
(after leaving unplugged from AC for a few minutes) and see how the caps
are doing before planning a system around it.
 >> Stay informed about: PSU Advice 

kony wrote:

 >
 > <snip>
 >
  >> Well, from difference you will get from buying cheaper and
  >> proportionaly efficient hardware, you should consider taking
  >> stronger PSU (personaly, i'd take Enlight if available) or
  >> bigger/better/second monitor.
 >
 > Enlight and Chieftec are same power supply, as is Thermaltake. All
 > are Sirtec relabels. They change the case color, fan brand or
 > add/remove chrome grill and a second fan, cable sleeving, but for the
 > most part only cosmetic differences.
 >
 > The 340W would probably work for the described parts but it's somewhat
 > marginal, a 400W+ would be better. Ignoring the problems I mention
 > in the next paragraph it's not a cheap/junk unit but it's actual
 > capacity is a bit lower than optimal for the described system.
 >
 > I had an Enlight 340W that failed, vented the cap next to a load
 > resistor because the two parts were too close on the PCB, touching,
 > actually cemented together. I replaced the failed cap and it worked
 > fine again for 2/3 of a year then another cap failed... replaced that
 > 2nd failed cap and it's running fine again for several months AFAIK.
 > If it hadn't been for the caps it would've been a great value (came
 > free-with-case in an Enlight case) for the total cost but I'd rather
 > have paid a few $ more and never had to repair it.
 >
 > Point being, the PSU is by the standards of any other type of consumer
 > equipment, junk, but by power supplies standards there are so many
 > power supplies so much worse that it seems like a median unit, that
 > works fine but potentially has a defect or two in parts and PCB
 > layout. The OP's power supply might be near failure already, might
 > be good to open it up (after leaving unplugged from AC for a few
 > minutes) and see how the caps are doing before planning a system
 > around it.

Cheers for the advice, Dave, but putting a system together has me nervous
enough without contemplating opening the PSU! It came with a Chieftec Dragon
case I bought about eight months ago.

The bit I really loathe when assembling a new system is attaching the HSF to
the CPU. I have only ever done this once, successfully, and that was with
the screw-in type of HS, rather than the clip on. The clip ons always make
me really nervous as I'm scared of either putting too much load on the chip
when attaching, and therefore risking crushing the die (I know a shim would
solve that issue, but I've never used one - maybe that's my problem - and
I'm not sure how to go about attaching it) or applying too little - or too
much - thermal paste and it burning up at switch on. Or being too cackhanded
with the flathead and scratching the board and breaking a vital connector.

I value your advice (hell, if you told me that jumping off a 200' cliff
would be good for my health, I'd do it!)

I have a Thermaltake copper fan-type heatsink - would that be better than
the one in the box? It's quite heavy so would probably require a shim to
spread the load. Trouble is, I've never seen just a shim for sale on its
own.

Your advice is, as always, most welcome.

Blessed Be
 >> Stay informed about: PSU Advice 

On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 01:31:19 -0000, "Cerridwen"
wrote:


 >Cheers for the advice, Dave, but putting a system together has me nervous
 >enough without contemplating opening the PSU! It came with a Chieftec Dragon
 >case I bought about eight months ago.

It's really rather easy, a few screws and off comes the top... vented
caps are relatively easy to see. The ones at issue are those right next
to, underneath the wiring harness where it leaves the power supply.
Besides taking the cover off there is no futher mucking around inside
needed, expect perhaps lifting the wires up so you can see underneath...
perfect safe if you've left it unplugged for a few minutes before opening
it.

 >The bit I really loathe when assembling a new system is attaching the HSF to
 >the CPU. I have only ever done this once, successfully, and that was with
 >the screw-in type of HS, rather than the clip on. The clip ons always make
 >me really nervous as I'm scared of either putting too much load on the chip
 >when attaching, and therefore risking crushing the die (I know a shim would
 >solve that issue, but I've never used one - maybe that's my problem - and
 >I'm not sure how to go about attaching it) or applying too little - or too
 >much - thermal paste and it burning up at switch on. Or being too cackhanded
 >with the flathead and scratching the board and breaking a vital connector.

We're talking about a P4, right? The risk of crushing/chipping a P4 is
quite low compared to an Athlon. Well I thought this was for a P4 but
considering what you wrote above it sounds more like an Athlon.

Either way, steady and slow... even pressure across the CPU core and the
right-sized tool for the job. Very thin layer of thermal compound, it's
unlikely you'd apply too little, if it's covering the whole core it's
enough unless the heatsink is VERY crudely finished, in which case you
might consider lapping it with fine-grit, say 400-600, sandpaper (or
larger grit, lower number to start out then switching later would make it
go faster).


 >I have a Thermaltake copper fan-type heatsink - would that be better than
 >the one in the box? It's quite heavy so would probably require a shim to
 >spread the load. Trouble is, I've never seen just a shim for sale on its
 >own.


It probably is better, providing it has a decent fan on it... they have a
couple with decent fans, though one is very loud, the other is a ribbed
panaflo and pretty quiet... think that's on the "Silent Boost" heatsink.

Shims aren't really necessary, I've never used one myself. Mainly just
have the board out of the case IF that's necessary to see what you're
doing. When clamping down the heatsink don't let the pressure be exerted
on the corner of the core, sort-of lift up and over towards the other tab
(gently) so the force is distributed across the core more evenly. It's
harder to explain than to do it if you have good access to it, not being
cramped by a power supply right above it or memory modules, etc.
 >> Stay informed about: PSU Advice 

kony wrote:
 > On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 01:31:19 -0000, "Cerridwen"

 >
 >
  >> Cheers for the advice, Dave, but putting a system together has me
  >> nervous enough without contemplating opening the PSU! It came with a
  >> Chieftec Dragon case I bought about eight months ago.
 >
 > It's really rather easy, a few screws and off comes the top... vented
 > caps are relatively easy to see. The ones at issue are those right
 > next to, underneath the wiring harness where it leaves the power
 > supply. Besides taking the cover off there is no futher mucking
 > around inside needed, expect perhaps lifting the wires up so you can
 > see underneath... perfect safe if you've left it unplugged for a few
 > minutes before opening it.
 >
  >> The bit I really loathe when assembling a new system is attaching
  >> the HSF to the CPU. I have only ever done this once, successfully,
  >> and that was with the screw-in type of HS, rather than the clip on.
  >> The clip ons always make me really nervous as I'm scared of either
  >> putting too much load on the chip when attaching, and therefore
  >> risking crushing the die (I know a shim would solve that issue, but
  >> I've never used one - maybe that's my problem - and I'm not sure how
  >> to go about attaching it) or applying too little - or too much -
  >> thermal paste and it burning up at switch on. Or being too
  >> cackhanded with the flathead and scratching the board and breaking a
  >> vital connector.
 >
 > We're talking about a P4, right? The risk of crushing/chipping a P4
 > is quite low compared to an Athlon. Well I thought this was for a P4
 > but considering what you wrote above it sounds more like an Athlon.

My fault. Up until now, I have had Athlons (the last was a 2800+ Barton
which I've just put up on eBay). I'm switching to Intel mainly for the
'soft' overclocking options they offer (with Bartons it's a hit-and-miss
affair involving a pencil, a steady hand and a lot of patience - and I don't
have any (well, apart from the pencil!))


 > Either way, steady and slow... even pressure across the CPU core and
 > the right-sized tool for the job. Very thin layer of thermal
 > compound, it's unlikely you'd apply too little, if it's covering the
 > whole core it's enough unless the heatsink is VERY crudely finished,
 > in which case you might consider lapping it with fine-grit, say
 > 400-600, sandpaper (or larger grit, lower number to start out then
 > switching later would make it go faster).
 >
 >
  >> I have a Thermaltake copper fan-type heatsink - would that be better
  >> than the one in the box? It's quite heavy so would probably require
  >> a shim to spread the load. Trouble is, I've never seen just a shim
  >> for sale on its own.
 >
 >
 > It probably is better, providing it has a decent fan on it... they
 > have a couple with decent fans, though one is very loud, the other is
 > a ribbed panaflo and pretty quiet... think that's on the "Silent
 > Boost" heatsink.


That's the critter!

 > Shims aren't really necessary, I've never used one myself. Mainly
 > just have the board out of the case IF that's necessary to see what
 > you're doing. When clamping down the heatsink don't let the
 > pressure be exerted on the corner of the core, sort-of lift up and
 > over towards the other tab (gently) so the force is distributed
 > across the core more evenly. It's harder to explain than to do it if
 > you have good access to it, not being cramped by a power supply right
 > above it or memory modules, etc.

Good point. Assemble everything outside the box. It's a decent sized case
(http://www.chieftec.com/products/Workcolor/Dragon.htm - the green one
though, sadly, it didn't come with the perspex panelled door). Standard
fare - removable drive bay container, rails for opticals.

If P4s are easier to install than Athlons, I'll go for it (just need the
funds now!). If I get too nervous, the son of one of Dad's golfing buddies
is the senior tech at the local Computacenter (though if they're anything
like PC World, that doesn't count for much; the PC World techs no nothing
about the products they sell - the last moron I spoke to didn't know the
difference between a 478 and a Socket A!)

Ta muchly matey!

Cerri
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Cerridwen's log on stardate 14 ožu 2004

/zip

Gee, it seems that i didn't get your point ... Ehh, sorry 'bout that ...

  >> Well, from difference you will get from buying cheaper and
  >> proportionaly efficient hardware, you should consider taking stronger
  >> PSU (personaly, i'd take Enlight if available) or
  >> bigger/better/second monitor.
 >
 > Why would I want a better/second monitor? I have a 17" flat panel.

Graphic artist on 17"? And you ask me why would you whatn better/second
monitor?


--
Ja sjedoh, svi sjedoshe
Ja ustah, svi ustashe!
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kony's log on stardate 14 ožu 2004

 > Enlight and Chieftec are same power supply, as is Thermaltake. All
 > are Sirtec relabels. They change the case color, fan brand or
 > add/remove chrome grill and a second fan, cable sleeving, but for the
 > most part only cosmetic differences.

Perhaps. Not that i've seen any Sirtec PSU, however, i have seen lot of
Enlights in many brands, including redundant PSUs. With Chieftec, i've
had some problems, 300W and 360W models, IIRC.

 > I had an Enlight 340W that failed, vented the cap next to a load
 > resistor because the two parts were too close on the PCB, touching,
 > actually cemented together. I replaced the failed cap and it worked
 > fine again for 2/3 of a year then another cap failed... replaced that
 > 2nd failed cap and it's running fine again for several months AFAIK.
 > If it hadn't been for the caps it would've been a great value (came
 > free-with-case in an Enlight case) for the total cost but I'd rather
 > have paid a few $ more and never had to repair it.

Aaaa, free-with-case PSUs. Ofcours, i had doesns of dead Antec Smart
Powers that came with cases. It hasn't lowerd Antec in my eyes as a good
PSU. But, you had only one dead Enlight. I had over 30 dead Chieftecs.
Dunno, bad series, lousy distributer, however, that's IME.

 > Point being, the PSU is by the standards of any other type of
 > consumer equipment, junk, but by power supplies standards there are
 > so many power supplies so much worse that it seems like a median
 > unit, that works fine but potentially has a defect or two in parts
 > and PCB layout. The OP's power supply might be near failure already,
 > might be good to open it up (after leaving unplugged from AC for a
 > few minutes) and see how the caps are doing before planning a system
 > around it.

I wouldn't be so sceptical about PSUs integritiy, but good point if you
whant to make shure everithyng is ok.


--
Ja sjedoh, svi sjedoshe
Ja ustah, svi ustashe!
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On 14 Mar 2004 11:02:32 GMT, Bubba wrote:

 >kony's log on stardate 14 ožu 2004
 >
  >> Enlight and Chieftec are same power supply, as is Thermaltake. All
  >> are Sirtec relabels. They change the case color, fan brand or
  >> add/remove chrome grill and a second fan, cable sleeving, but for the
  >> most part only cosmetic differences.
 >
 >Perhaps. Not that i've seen any Sirtec PSU, however, i have seen lot of
 >Enlights in many brands, including redundant PSUs. With Chieftec, i've
 >had some problems, 300W and 360W models, IIRC.

Their 300W is a notch below what I'd accept for any system regardless of
how much power it needs, but the 340W is a fair build, somewhat similar
enough to an Antec 300W or SL350 but perhaps slightly smaller transformer,
lower peak wattage than the Sl350... never had the two open side-by-side
so I could be slightly off.

 >
  >> I had an Enlight 340W that failed, vented the cap next to a load
  >> resistor because the two parts were too close on the PCB, touching,
  >> actually cemented together. I replaced the failed cap and it worked
  >> fine again for 2/3 of a year then another cap failed... replaced that
  >> 2nd failed cap and it's running fine again for several months AFAIK.
  >> If it hadn't been for the caps it would've been a great value (came
  >> free-with-case in an Enlight case) for the total cost but I'd rather
  >> have paid a few $ more and never had to repair it.
 >
 >Aaaa, free-with-case PSUs. Ofcours, i had doesns of dead Antec Smart
 >Powers that came with cases. It hasn't lowerd Antec in my eyes as a good
 >PSU. But, you had only one dead Enlight. I had over 30 dead Chieftecs.
 >Dunno, bad series, lousy distributer, however, that's IME.

How did they die? That's my concern. One thing I've never liked about
that series is the cheaper, often sleeve-bearing, SuperRed fan. I only
have two PSU models right now with sleeve-bearing fans... one is Fortron
with a 120mm at very low RPM, and the other with a Liteon Server PSU (that
actually came with a BB Nidec) but was replaced for noise issues, but it
immediately shuts itself off if the fan stops.

From the 1st failure I had, attributable to PCB layout, I'm pretty
confident that many of that design had the same failure mode, it clearly
was misdesigned, not just a capacitor defect/quality type issue.

 >
  >> Point being, the PSU is by the standards of any other type of
  >> consumer equipment, junk, but by power supplies standards there are
  >> so many power supplies so much worse that it seems like a median
  >> unit, that works fine but potentially has a defect or two in parts
  >> and PCB layout. The OP's power supply might be near failure already,
  >> might be good to open it up (after leaving unplugged from AC for a
  >> few minutes) and see how the caps are doing before planning a system
  >> around it.
 >
 >I wouldn't be so sceptical about PSUs integritiy, but good point if you
 >whant to make shure everithyng is ok.

Well the warranty on a power supply means very little to me, I even open
up new units to verify there isn't anything amiss... every now and then I
do spot something, like a fan barely plugged in or once even a capacitor
installed backwards that made a persistent high-pitched noise even though
the power supply "seemed" to be working fine at the time. Also after a
unit's been used for a while, before employing it long-term, it doesn't
hurt to clean it out.

Then there's the manufacturers with multiple units that "seem" alike but
aren't. For example, some Channel Well units are pretty good, were
relabeled by Antec, then Channel Well also makes a low-end unit bearing a
label that looks VERY similar, with identical specs too, but is quite
different, poorly built and not worth it's rating. One could tell by the
weight of the units but opening it up is much more revealing.

I guess the bottom line is that I could trust a manufacturer, but why,
when the top comes off?
 >> Stay informed about: PSU Advice 

kony wrote in message ...

 > Then there's the manufacturers with multiple units that
 > "seem" alike but aren't. For example, some Channel Well
 > units are pretty good, were relabeled by Antec, then
 > Channel Well also makes a low-end unit bearing a label
 > that looks VERY similar, with identical specs too, but
 > is quite different, poorly built and not worth it's rating.

Only Channel Wells with model numbers containing an "A" or "B" near
the end are good . IOW a Channel Well CWT-300BS would be just like a
300W Antec SmartPower or Solution Series, while a CWT-430AD would be
like a 430W Antec TruePower. "S" means "single fan", "D" means "dual
fan", and some models also have a "P", i.e., CWT-480ADP, to indicate
"power factor corrected".
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kony's log on stardate 14 ožu 2004

  >>Aaaa, free-with-case PSUs. Ofcours, i had doesns of dead Antec Smart
  >>Powers that came with cases. It hasn't lowerd Antec in my eyes as a
  >>good PSU. But, you had only one dead Enlight. I had over 30 dead
  >>Chieftecs. Dunno, bad series, lousy distributer, however, that's IME.
 >
 > How did they die? That's my concern.

They just ... died. No big bang, no splash, no burnt smel. Ehh, they
never died while working. Basicly, people turned on theyr computer, and
got nothing.

 > From the 1st failure I had, attributable to PCB layout, I'm pretty
 > confident that many of that design had the same failure mode, it
 > clearly was misdesigned, not just a capacitor defect/quality type
 > issue.

95% of PSUs are made by same layouf, wiht few modifications depending
on desireble output power/current. So, yes, there are designers
mistakes, but rarely on the PCB itself. Everithing is producet in 3-4
Chines factories (a lot of little cooperants, simmilar to
car-indursty). Well known brands don't even have their own production!

I'll give you an example. I doubt you have ever heard for MS PSUs, but
they are el-cheapo low end class PSUs. I had MS "550W", and it has
designers mistake that input EMI filter is in contact with heatsinks
for output voltages and temperature regulators, wich results 220V on
PSU output. So i secured it, and was suprised when I saw that layout is
simmilar to Vantec 420W, and MS PSU is native for Croatia.

  >>I wouldn't be so sceptical about PSUs integritiy, but good point if
  >>you whant to make shure everithyng is ok.
 >
 > Well the warranty on a power supply means very little to me, I even
 > open up new units to verify there isn't anything amiss... every now
 > and then I do spot something, like a fan barely plugged in or once
 > even a capacitor installed backwards that made a persistent
 > high-pitched noise even though the power supply "seemed" to be
 > working fine at the time.

Instaled backwards? Electrolyt capacitors?

 > Also after a unit's been used for a while, before employing it
 > long-term, it doesn't hurt to clean it out.

Apsolutly.

 > I guess the bottom line is that I could trust a manufacturer, but
 > why, when the top comes off?

IMO and IME, i had more problems with distributers than with manufacturers
themself. Guy bought Gainwards graphic card, and distributer gave him 1
year warranty. Card started showing few artefacts (it was working) few
months after warranty expired, distributer doesn't whant to hear anything
about replacing the card, even though Gainward gives 3 years. He mails
Gainward and gets a new card without a problem. Epox, Gigabyte,3D Labs,
same thing ... What i whant to say, there is no hardware that doesn't
dies. But when it dies, i whatn to have a good support, and then not have
any additional problems with replacing it.

--
Ja sjedoh, svi sjedoshe
Ja ustah, svi ustashe!
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"Cerridwen" wrote in message

 > I'm calculating for a new CPU/RAM/board combo, and I need to know whether
a
 > 340W Chieftec supply will be sufficient to run the following: -
 >
 > ASUS P4800C -E Deluxe
 > 1GB OCZ 3500
 > P4C 3.2 (I can't see that a 3.4 justifies an extra £100). I've been
looking
 > for a 3.2GHz Prescott, but I can't find them anywhere online in the UK.
 > 2xWDC IDE (160 and 200)
 > Pioneer DVD +/- burner
 > DVD-ROM
 > 9800 Pro (can't see any reason to upgrade as I'm not a serious /serious/
 > gamer - I'm a graphics artist)
 > Audigy 2 Platinum
 >
 > If not, what should I be budgeting for?
 >
 >

I wouldn't go less then 450w
 >> Stay informed about: PSU Advice 

430 Watt Antec, minimum.

--
DaveW



"Cerridwen" wrote in message

 > I'm calculating for a new CPU/RAM/board combo, and I need to know whether
a
 > 340W Chieftec supply will be sufficient to run the following: -
 >
 > ASUS P4800C -E Deluxe
 > 1GB OCZ 3500
 > P4C 3.2 (I can't see that a 3.4 justifies an extra £100). I've been
looking
 > for a 3.2GHz Prescott, but I can't find them anywhere online in the UK.
 > 2xWDC IDE (160 and 200)
 > Pioneer DVD +/- burner
 > DVD-ROM
 > 9800 Pro (can't see any reason to upgrade as I'm not a serious /serious/
 > gamer - I'm a graphics artist)
 > Audigy 2 Platinum
 >
 > If not, what should I be budgeting for?
 >
 >
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